Where do you draw the line at your credulity?!


Question: Where do you draw the line at your credulity!?
It's been my experience that people who believe in one form of alternative medicine tend to believe in all of them, or at least many different kinds!. This despite the fact many of the types of AM have contradictory philosophies, and clearly both can't be true, even assuming one of them is!.

Every once in a while, I run across someone who may agree with me that, for example, homeopathy is obviously nonsense but that I'm an arrogant armchair critic and reductionist because I also don't find the evidence for, let us say, acupuncture very compelling!.

So!.!.!.my question to you all!.!.!.is how do YOU decide what to believe in and how do you decide what is bunk!? Is it personal experience!? Is it anecdotally from the experience of friends or relatives!? If you read a negative report on two different AM practices!.!.and one of them is something you don't believe in , and the other is something you DO believe in!.!.!.!.!.do you reject the report that criticizes your belief system only!?Www@Answer-Health@Com


Answers:
I'm in a bit of a weird position in this field in that, I'm connected to one of the main/top chinese medicine schools (specifically one that works with imaginary things such as chi, physically instead of just using needles), and it's very common for us to come across people who know very little about what they're doing, but market themselves as master and get a huge ammount of attention, and then often do practices which are either fairly useless or harm people!.
So, I'm in the funny position of "having a vested interest" in one of alt meds main issues (that "bio-energy" exists and can be used for health), but at the same time, having to go after people (ie!. reiki ones) that follow the practice but do it incorrectly, in essence attacking those who should be my closest allies!. I can effectively sum of the problem with chinese/energetic medicine as "since very few people over here know what it is, there are no standards in place and anyone can claim mastery and sucessfully advertise themselves as such!."

When I was raised, I repeatedly saw things demonstrated with Chinese medicine that every reputable scientific mainstream source told me was false, laughable and scientifically impossible!. Hence overtime (along with some other influences) I arrived at the philosophy of "just because everyone believes something does not mean it's true," and then in line with that "never ever adamently believe things purely on faith!." I believe that's what makes my own viewpoint somewhat unique, along with the fact I have access to a lot of resources most do not, and I'm "moderately intelligent!." It's been such a common thing for me to learn things I was absolutely certain were true in fact were false, that I effectively have somewhat of an open mind on most things, and there are now very very few things which I am absolutely certain of!.

At this point in time I hold a rather simple bias: "various large powerful groups exert a disproportionate of relatively unrealized influence over society, and commonly use that ability to promote commercial interests!. Oftentimes this means creating a market where people are forced to use one expensive commodity (or face horrible consequences) and squash any alternative created to their method which provides a cheaper and or better solution!." I have seen this theory proven time and time again, and medicine is no exception (ie!. I know multiple people who have worked on energy projects which successfully developed good working commercially viable alternatives to what we have now, and in each case their designed were bought out and patented by oil companies never to see the light of day!.!.!.!.I actually used one to win a county wide physics competition in high school)!.

The reason I gravitated towards alternative medicine was pretty simple!. I had a lot of background knowledge in health, and it's a field where it's very easy to "better results than the mainstream" (whereas I consider most alternative energy "hard")!. Early on I was put into a big dillema with all of it!.

a) I know good treatments exist!.
b) I know there is an immense ammount of propoganda and disfinformation on them (this a small snapshot of the point)!.
c) I know that some people in the movement are purely motivated to help people!.
d) Since the field is underground it has no standards for establishing quality or efficacy, and hence like chinese medicine a novice can claim mastery!.
e) Going with D, some people that practice the therapies really know very little; but as many effective ones are so simple that's all that's necessary!.

So, it brought me back to a simple question!. How can I tell if an alternative method is clinically useful!? Since the mainstream data has so many outside influences, that's usually suspect!. Eventually I came to this method!.
1) At some point I'll randomly come across a treatment!.
2) I'll look it up and see if it has any point (I believe there are numerous ways to cure just about every condition, and if there is an effective cheap harmless alternative to what the therapy I'm considering does, especially one which is more efficacious I just skip it)!.
3) I try to figure out the scientific theory it works on (I admit this might be controversial to an allopath, since I'm a bit more open minded here, but I do have a set of rules I hold things to) and then see if there's any chance it could be toxic or dangerous!. If it passes both tests,
4) I go find someone to test it on, and see what happens!. For this I tend to err away from things which aim to accomplish subtle improvements in subjective feeling (ie!. I feel less lethargic/depressed), since it's too hard to tell if the treatment did anything, or if it was just pure placebo!. Sometimes I play games like telling someone it's a shitty treatment but I lost a bet so I have to test it on someone to make someone happy, mostly so the person gets the opposite of a placebo effect!.
5) When 4 happens I generally get one of two results!.
a) The treatment doesn't really do anything!.
b) Some amazing effect occurs which matches what I read it would do!.
6) For those in category A, I go oh well, don't bother to focus on them anymore, and tend to avoid things which work on the same principle!. A's tend to be a lot more common sadly!. If something falls under B, I test it some more, and they often become things I recommend to people!.

I've pretty much been repeating that for 2 years, and now I've hit the point that I get better results for people on some conditions than from expensive doctors (at the moment I'm working on the second person for HPV)!. The essential problem with my method is that it "does not fulfill the standards of experimental rigor" (ie!. my limited success in trials could have come from chance or placebos), but I don't really care, since the alternative would be doing nothing at all since I don't have millions in funding!. The big problem (at least to me) in regards to using evidence based medicine lies in the fact that so much of the data is suspect (ie!. I know research scientists who doctored their results under pressure from their funders), and it's often very hard to know exactly how truthful what you read is!. So, my cop to the dilemma out effectively is highly value first person sources!. If all the established papers claim H2O2 is useless for colds, but I feel them go away with 10 mins of gargling it, I'm inclined to side with that!. I also know a few doctors who work in clinics and have spent years doing approaches similar to mine, and I often have them guide me to therapies they've found work (since there are so many things it's really impossible to look at everyone)!. A year ago I had a relative get cancer, so I called up one doctor, asked what worked, looked up what he suggested, tested it on the relative, got a remission, and added those tools to my database!.

The only other thing I can add to this, is that when you start working with energetic healing (or say Daoist things), it's very common to encounter things that are beyond your direct ability to percieve or fully understand!. When you hit that place, the choice comes up to either artifically construct a framework that can explain everything (but in fact is a reduced and false viewpoint), or accept the difficulty of full understanding and try to see/perceive as much as you can!. If I see a treatment that clearly produces results, but I can't explain the mode of action for (ie!. homeopathy), I don't create a world view that claims it's false so I can maintain the illusion of dominion, I just go hmm!.!.!.wonder what's really going on and mainly focus on using the medicine for it's stated purpose; healing people!. That effectively demonstrates the difference between clinical and theoretical medicine, of which I belong to the former, but modern medicine has largely shifted to the latter!.

With the chinese techniques for healing, a very common trend comes up!. The placebo effect is not created equal!. There is a big difference between "wanting to be get well" and "the specific mental process you use to heal your body!." I'm not exactly sure why, but western science hasn't really figured this out or made the distinction yet!. Point being, in many of the energetic practices, they produce results, but they are highly dependent on how well they are done (or even if a good teacher is available)!. I can't count the number of times I've seen a good and bad teacher show a tai chi form to their students (which look identical to an unskilled observer), but those with the good teacher have their health visibly improve while almost nothing happens the other group!. This effectively makes it impossible to test the stuff in the standard allopathic model, and has led to me giving up on trying to enter the scientific debates of exactly how the treatment correspond to double blind trials!.
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I read the book skepdoc advocated (http://books!.google!.com/books!?id=dCDbUsC!.!.!.
The author seemed to make this argument!.
First, if A (conventionial cure) > not C (cure)
Second, if B > Not C
Third, if D (alternative cure) > C!.
(and in certain cases, drastically increase the yield of conventional therapies instead of just 2 which failed)!.
If the person makes the assumption that "If D > C" they are an idiot because D creates a placebo effect (by definition since it's an alternative therapy) which causes C, and D is actually a sham!.
If that's true, then why didn't the conventional therapy's placebo do anything!?Www@Answer-Health@Com

I have quite a number of books on veterinary homeopathy!. I have used a homeopathic veterinarian for both cats I have had with cancer - with good result!. Plus I have taken a course in veterinary homeopathy from the British Institute of Homeopathy here in the US!.

When I developed bursititis following a mastectomy I was treated by an acupuncturist which helped with the pain and loss of function there!. One of my cat's has also had acupuncture!.

I don't read "women's magazines" or subscribe to any scientific journal!.

I have worked with a naturopath and taken homeopathic remedies under his instructions for my health issues!.

I recently had two infected fingers!. I went to the HMO - $30 for the MD to stick a pin in the finger and draw off pus, $20 for the lab fee to identify the infection as "miscellaneous staph", $12 for antibiotics!. That's in addition to the $200 a month taken out of my SS for medicare and the $100 a month I pay to be a member of the HMO!. I am going to have a colonoscopy in July - that's outpatient surgery ($250)!.

I only dribble on about this because health care is exorbitantly expensive - especially for seniors on SS and medicare!. If people can find "alternative medicine" to help them the cost is usually much lower than current US health care costs!.Www@Answer-Health@Com

I do not know where to draw my line!. I have received 3 serious and legitimate diagnosis in the past 2 years!. One of the things I was diagnosed with is Intercranial Hypertension or psuedotumor cerebri!. I am not the typical patient for this ailment because I am not obese!. I spent 9 days in the hospital and a year on coumidin and diamox!. They determined that this happened because of my prescription medicines ( The combination of Hgh and steroids for my sinus condition)!. I am on Hgh because I have Empty Sella syndrome ( I don't make any Hgh) and my cholesterol is uncontrollable!. My sinus condition is Samter's Triad!. I have always relied on traditional medicine in the past!. I am now 2 years and thousands of dollars down the road and I am no healthier!. I am tired of hauling my pile of CAT scans and MRI's to specialist so I can without a doubt prove I am not a hypochondriac!. They unanimously think I am an interesting case but cannot help me!. At what point would you draw your line at the credulity of traditional medicine if you were unable to find help!. I am a young mother of 3 boys and I am not quite ready to just give up!. I am always open to suggestions!.


P!.S!. I want traditional medicine to help me that is why I pay $800+ a month for health insurance!. I am just becoming a skeptic myself after a long battle!.Www@Answer-Health@Com

My mom is a naturopathic doctor and so I read loads of research thats she passes along to me, however my decisions on what to believe are ultimately based on what kind of lifestyle I am willing to live!.
I have decided that I am not willing to live a lifestyle where I go to the doctor and get medicines for every condition, and I have ultimately decided that if I take care of my body, my body will take care of me!.
Some of that is personal experience and the experience of others, but a bulk of my decision is simply deciding what I do and don't want to put into my body!. Its a simple as that!.
If I don't want it inside me, I don't take it, and this goes for both contemporary and alternative medicines!. When making my decisions I am not primarily concerned with results!. I focus on ingredients!.
As for homeopathy, it is not complete crap!. I am on the fence with whether or not to believe it is the actual microdose or the placebo effect, but whichever one it is, they have worked for me and countless others in that past, and there are some good examples in medicine that point to the phenomenon of hormesis as being plausible!. Thyroid hormone is present in our blood at only 1 part per 10 billion-yet this is enough to regulate the rate of our entire metabolism!.
Homeopathic medicines are also believed to work in the spiritual plane and not the physical plane, one theory is that the dilution process triggers an electromagnetic imprinting that directly affects the electro- magnetic field of the body!. Homeopathy is very related to the idea of Quantum phsyics!.
In the doctrine of homeopathy illness is an individual expression of imbalance and has important meaning, but only to that person!. You cannot necessarily treat different people with the same homeopathic!.

Alternative medicines might differ in the ways in which they treat patients, as well as the philosophies behind why those treatments work, but they all share 1 thing in common and that is: you are the ultimate decider on what level of health you want!. If you aren't meeting your desired optimal health with a contemporary practitioner, it makes sense to try other things!. And if you are happy with modern medicine, then so be it!.
I feel I am the only person who can decide whether or not I am healthy, and I will seek ways to achieve health if I don't already have it!. This has always worked for me!.

Also, Scorpian, I don't think homeopathy necessarily contradicts with herbs!. It contradicts with the vitalist perspective, but I have known many people to support both!. They both involve taking something to rid yourself of a certain symptom, and emphasize self care, the only major difference being the plane on which the self-care substance acts!.

To Skep Doc 2!.0:
Your original question was "how do YOU decide what to believe in!?" and so that IS how I choose what to believe in!. Your question was opinion oriented and that is my opinion!.
Your assumption on my choice of reading materials is premature!. How would you know what I read!?!. Second, I did previously mention I was on the fence about homeopathy and I was not taking a specific side, merely informing anyone who reads this about the beliefs and practices surrounding homeopathy!. Homeopathy is said to work with the energy of the diluted substance!. That is its core belief, and I was merely repeating it!.
As for research, the bias goes both ways!. Naturopaths write naturopathic articles, Allopaths write Allopathic articles etc!. If most of your information is coming from research by conventional doctors, I would say you are just as biased as I am (although I am not implying that that is where your research comes from and your/my sources are not the central issue!.) However, here is an example of a non-naturopathic article:

"Evaluating the Alternatives" JAMA, 1998!. 279:706
Columbia University College of Physicians and sugeons!.
(This article makes no assessment on the reliability of either side!. I do, however, classify it to be unbiased!.)

Here are also the basic requirements of becoming a naturopathic doctor:
"Naturopathic physicians in North America are primary care providers trained in conventional medical sciences, diagnosis and treatment, and are experts in natural therapeutics!. Licensing and training requirements vary from state to state, but at least 15 states, the District of Columbia, and four Canadian provinces have formal licensing and educational requirements!. In these jurisdictions, Naturopathic Physicians must pass comprehensive board exams set by the North American Board of Naturopathic Examiners after having completed academic and clinical training at a college certified by the Council on Naturopathic Medical Education!. The letters ND usually designate a naturopathic doctor or physician in jurisdictions where such a title is protected by law!." -Wikipedia

My mom falls into the naturopathic physician category, not just traditional naturopathy, so as a physician she, and other naturopaths like her, have received your same training!.Www@Answer-Health@Com

Alex and Scorpian, guys you are brilliant!. Bravo!. Both of your testimonials to the alt-med subject are long, but never boring!. There is no point of making another one by me!. You said it all!.
There is but just one little thing I would like to bring to your attention!. And that is the subject of "homoeopathy"!. I am not surprised in SkepDoc attitude, but why you Scorpian!? You are a strong believer in many complementary ways but maybe you think that homoeopathy is a bit too far fetched!? Many people do and the almighty science is repeating itself with words "Show us the proof"!. Well how come nobody told the sharks that they can't smell a molecule of fresh blood in the open ocean!. They can detect some scents at concentrations as low as 1 part per 25 million, which translates to about a third of a mile away!. 1: 25!.000!.000 !!
Sounds like a homoeopathy, doesn't it!? And what about other powers!? All animals generate electricity around them as their muscles contract in movement and their heart beats!. Researchers have found that sharks can detect these unimaginably small electrical fields!. For example, the bonnethead shark appears to sense a field of 1 nanovolt per square centimeter - that's about equal to the voltage you'd find if you connected two flashlight batteries with a wire 10,000 miles long!. It amounts to a sensitivity to electricity that's 5 million times greater than what we humans can feel!. So how can all this is possible!. Smell is so vital to a shark that two-thirds of its brain is devoted to it and that makes him different to the human scientist!. If 66 % of our brains are devoted to science we would all understand the concepts of homoeopathy and more!.!.!.!.Www@Answer-Health@Com

I find it interesting that followers of homeopathy believe that water has a memory or that dilution makes a substance stronger!.!.!. but the same people will disagree with the notion that you can download and listen to homeopathic remedies!. (unbelievably this is being sold on the major homeopathy websites - presumably they got bored of the dilutions and shakings)!.

As ridiculous as the latter sounds to them, their beliefs about successions, dilutions etc!. sound to the rest of us!.

I'm not sure how they decide where to draw the line because the evidence for all of it is pitiful!.

EDIT: DOCTRINE: what has that got to do with homeopathy!? If true, sharks are detecting a molecule which exists not "detecting the memory of a molecule"!. Homeopathic remedies do not contain a single molecule of active ingredient!. That's the whole basis of this crap and why it is rejected by logical people - surely you understand that!?

Homeopathic remedies are not just diluted- after each dilution a large proportion of the solution is discarded!. After a certain point it becomes improbable that there is even a single molecule left!. After more and more dilutions and discardings the probability of a quack remedy containing a single molecule becomes zero!. Quacks say that it doesn't matter that there are no molecules left; it's the memory of these molecules that counts!.

It's pretty grim that you think your shark anecdote supports homeopathy, when in fact it is yet more evidence against!.Www@Answer-Health@Com

im studying to be a doctor (of ya know!.!.!.actual medicine!. sorry i had to go there), so the only thing i believe about alternative medicine is that its about as useful as rubbing two sheets of paper together and as big a waste of money as throwing 20 dollar bills in the toilet and flushing!. there are few people i can stand less than accupuncturists, chakra healers, and people who make up these ridiculous 'energy healing sessions'!. why not just be a drug dealer or a mugger (muggist!?)!? its not like youre earning that money now, so why not just steal old ladies' purses!? chiropractics have been shown to cause longterm damage to the spine and muscle tissue and i havent heard of anything solid supporting longterm effects in the positive, theres no such thing as a 'chakra', what the hell is an 'energy field' if not talking about chemistry (p!.s!. it doesnt exist), etc!. etc!. theres no hard science supporting any of it, period!. my question is, did they take a physiology class, just not get it and decide "screw it, im making up my own form of'medicine!. ive gotta make money somehow and i dont really want to EARN it by applying real scientific knowledge, so whats plan B'"!? medicine works!. surgery works!. treatments such as lavage, chemotherapy and radiation work!. and bygod, anesthesia works, and im thrilled that it does!. thats my opinion and im stickin to it!.
p!.s!. did you see that show about addiction on a&e with the heroine addict that was a practicing chiropractor!? he shoots up a big ol pile of heroine and then goes into work and manually manipulates (read: "made cracking noises and moved a chair around') human beings' backs!. i rest my case!. and hey, if youre an arrogant armchair critic, so am i!. i support your weariness!.Www@Answer-Health@Com

People who believe in one form of hubabalub are not skeptically mided!.!. There for they tend to belive in all of it!.!. They think "if it was used in china 1000 years ago, then it must be good"!. Instead of "if it was used in China 1000 years ago then why is it not accepted by doctors snd scientists today!?" Marketing and catchy slogans are powerful tools!.!. "Organic" "Natual" "Green"!.!. Two total contadicting methods might both be labled as "Natural" Natural is better than --umm-- not natural I guess!.!. I think the general public dont realize that a lot of "natural" things are real medicine and can be dangerous!. At lease if you get the "mainstream" version, you know its in its cleanest form and very specific reliable dosage!.!.!. I prefer to just fix all my medical conditions with Kinoki Footpads!.!.!. J/K

I dont go to the doctor everytime I feel a crappy!.!. If I have a cold, Id rather take nothing and get better in about 14 days than look for a medicine alternative or mainstream to get better in 2 weeks!.!.Www@Answer-Health@Com

'It's been my experience that people who believe in one form of alternative medicine tend to believe in all of them, or at least many different kinds!.'

It is subjective to what one Alternative medicine supporter {or Altie, the term you coined for us} believes compared to another, you will never find two alties with the same 'belief system'!.

'This despite the fact many of the types of AM have contradictory philosophies, and clearly both can't be true, even assuming one of them is!.'

Please elaborate, which AM philosophies contradict!? give some examples!.
If you mean that in homeopathy, {which as you may know I think is nonsense}, that the more dilute the 'medicine' the stronger its potency or dose, {e!.g!. 200C diluted in more potent that a 30C dilution}, this contradicts with orthomolecular medicine, and herbal medicine{which are scientifically valid, and based on science}, which states a proportional relationship between the dose administered and the therapeutic effect, in complete agreement with Conventional Medicine, or Pharmacology to be exact!.

Herbs have been shown to work, Germany is one such nation where alternative medicine is thriving, popular, and being scientifically evaluated!. This is due to the history of Germany, specifically Nazi Germany, whereby Hitler saw in Herbs, the future of German Medicine, and his Nazi party funded research and development in this field, which has continued even after his cruel dictatorship!. All GP's/Doctors are trained in Herbalism in Germany, and use/prescribe herbs as common practice; In fact in Germany, the second most popular drug, after aspirin, is Ginkgo Biloba, this is unheard in any other nation in the West!.

Professor Edzard Ernst, the UK's first Complementery medicine professor, of Exeter Medical School says: ' the science in herbal medicine is as good as any science!. In alternative medicine I know of clinical trials in herbal medicine, which compare favorably with clinical trials in pharmacology or any other area in clinical medicine', Professor Ernst has analysed dozens of clinical trials, with the strictest, and most vigorous criteria, he has found 'at least a dozen herbal medicines to help in specific diseases', these have been coined the 'Super Herbs', and consist of:

St, John's Work - Helps with Mild/Moderate depression

Black Cohosh - Combats some of the effects of menopause

Devil's Claw - Acts an a anti-inflammatory, and joint pain

Saw Palmetto - Can relieve an enlarged prostate, and help men urinate better

Garlic - Lowers cholesterol and blood pressure

Hawthorne - Helps with heart/cardiovascular conditions, like Angina Pectoris

Horse Chestnut - Helps with the symptoms of varacous veins!.

Ginkgo Biloba - Solid proof, that it improves cognition and memory!.

These have been proven scientifically, with vigourous clinical trials that are equally vigorous as pharmaceutical trials [Source: BBC Alternative Medicine - Herbs]
None of this means, that these are the only herbs that work, they are merely the one's eminating from Germany that have been tested through expensive clinical trials!. 'I'm sure that out there, there are dozens, perhaps hundred of treasures to be found in the plant kingdom!.!.!.I'm absolutely convinced that this is not the end, we will continue to find effective treatments from plants' Professor Ernst

Orthomolecular medicine was founded by Dr!. Linus Pauling, twice Noble prize winner, with 48 honourary PhD's!. Orthomolecular medicine deals with nutrition, supplementation, and mega vitamin doses!. Like Vitamin C, 1000mg - 3000mg to boost immunity, vitamin boosts immunity by stimulating white blood cells to produce hydrogen peroxide, which oxidises and kills pathogenic microorganisms!. Which conventional medicine agrees with, at the daily RDA of 60mg, and not 1000mg or 3000mg, this is 'over-kill' and is just excreted through urine, 'making expensive urine' {as Michael Sherma says}!. But if you remember from your days of learning Organic Chemistry {I know painful memories} you would understand that when a chemical is in the right amount a certain reaction occurs/product, and when it is in excess a different product is made!. This is the case with Vitamin C!. Unfortunetly, the medical profession refuses to accept this, either through ignorance of how the therapy works, or due to the lack of clinical trials!.

You say you want to see the evidence, and on this I would have to agree with you!. You often quote



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